[johnf]

Here's a hand that interested me. It was a fairly typical 4/8 holdem game at the Bellagio - a bit loose but not spectacularly so. Three players limp in and so do I on the button with 76 hearts. The SB calls and the BB raises. Now, the BB was your stereotypical Vegas local: old, dour and tighter than two coats of paint. So as soon as he raised I had to figure him for a big pair. Every one called the raise. I can't remember the exact flop, but it was pretty raggedy and I made a three-flush and three cards to a straight. The BB bet, two players called and, with 15 small bets already in the pot, I decided it was worth seeing the turn. The turn gave me a forth heart. At this point the BB got cautious and checked. We all checked it round. I hit my flush on the river. The BB bet, I raised, he called and I won. He had pocket kings.

Hooray for me. But the real question is: was the BB right to raise pre-flop with his kings?

On the plus side is the simple fact that he figured to have the best hand at that stage. Get your chips in with the best of it, etc.

On the minus side, it gave away a lot of info about his hand and virtually guaranteed people would have decent odds to chase him with almost any kind of draw. In other words, his raise reduced the chances of his opponents making a BIG mistake later on in the hand.

An alternative strategy might have been to simply check pre-flop and then, if the board didn't look too scary, bet or even check/raise on the flop. At least that way the chases would be getting less value for money.

What do people think?

[lork]

Sometimes people put you on AK and think you missed. Z has a good article on raising where he writes about how being such a tight raiser can give away a hand as you described. I imagine the guy was raising for value.

I agree that if rather than a value raise, your intention is to thin the field, you should check the BB with a big "made" hand, and since you're in early position, check-raise on the flop if the first flop bettor is in late position. A limp in from the BB and a check raise on the flop makes people think you connected (BB could have ANYTHING) and kills the pot odds for those who come after and have to call two bets cold. The BB raise is only going to run off the "dominated" hands that you probably want to keep in the pot.

[norshvind]

I like your questions a lot. Especially I like the fact that you realize that despite the outcome there might be more to this.

In general I like to raise my premiums regardless of the number of opponents for a lot of reasons (given in the article CCM linked to). But I also dislike raising from the blinds and under the gun due to my bad position.

I might sometimes raise from bad position, but often I will just limb preflop. I don't give up much by this approach, as I will often be able to successfully put in a checkraise on the flop if it comes to my liking. I might lose a few costumers compared to the preflop raise, but often this will be compensated by the calls I can save myself the times the flop kills my hand.

Also I avoid giving away information as I play my great, medium and poor hands identical from these positions. By the same tokens I raise with a wide variety of hands from late position in order to avoid giving away information of the strength of my hand.

But in any case this might not be a bad place to experiment and mix it up a bit. Just make sure that you don't give them a complete freeroll by throwing in a raise with a low pair or suited connector every now and then from blinds or early positoon. You should not do this very often, as it is a long shot play, but in the rare chance that you flop a monster with one of these hands, your table image will improve quite a bit as they will give you more action and fear you at the same time.

[johnf]

It seems to me that the number of opponents was quite important in the example above. With five guys already in the pot, a raise wasn't going to drive anyone out and (therefore) it was going to really improve the odds for chasers (like me) on subsequent rounds. Against just two or three opponents it becomes a slightly different story.

As a postscript, I had a chance to try out my alternative strategy a couple of days later (again at the Bellagio) when I found myself against four or five opponents with KK in the BB.
I checked. The flop came rags. I checked (going for a check raise) but no-one bet. The turn was a Q. I bet and was raised. Everyone else folded. I called (chicken!). The river was a ten. I check/called and the other guy turned over QT for runner runner two pair. A case of "the operation was a success but the patient died".

[ballen]

Every time I think about betting into a draw all I do it picture TJ standing behind me preparing a Texan bitchslap to the side of my head.

[arcfinn]

Every time I think about betting into a draw all I do it picture TJ standing behind me preparing a Texan bitchslap to the side of my head.

[arcfinn]

I'm not sure I understand this thread.

I have ppK, and I should raise DEPENDENT upon my position? I think you should raise, and force the issue, asap. Best to raise from button, but, should be a raise from any position. Being early position can actually benefit you here.

Like the matterhorn(espn, tilt) states, act powerful when powerful, act weak when weak, especially to bluff.

Raising is an incredibly powerful play in poker, won't change the cards, but should have a profound effect on the play of your opponents. Should qualify that with raising in NL, much more effect than LIMIT. Raising in LIMIT is almost trivial.

Let's take ppK in BB EP. Limp, or raise?

Limp, ok, in NL, you can always make up for not betting.

Raise, you show strength, and put $ in pot. Lot of callers, fine, call stations exist. Maybe next time raise more, preflop.

Flop. If, flop rags/rainbow/undercards/etc:

If you limped, you should strike here, and make opponents pay for more cards. If you limped, beware rags to riches.

If you raised, then up the raise, and make em pay for your over pr, and their draws.

[razor]

personally I still like a raise here. In a semi-loose game a BB raise will typically get EVERYONE to call (since they already limped) Thus a majority of them are calling your raise with hands they would rather not (but since they arleady put money in...) and you are probably up against very few if any decent hands. Now your position post-flop isn't good, but I tend to enjoy firing out a bet if no ace hits(using the KK example) if you are raised the chances are you are being rasied by a shit-hand 2 pair since they know they got lucky and don't want to be outdrawn, giving you an easy fold. Calls shouldn't scare you IMO unless you stronly feel a player is holding trips, as a matter of fact the calls normally =draws/high pair(lower to yours) and should be played accordingly.

[petronder]

If I'm first in a pot and I'm planning on playing the hand, I'm going to raise. I can't tell you how many times I've been beat by a SB or BB who got to the flop for cheap with a crap hand and ended up winning. It just drives me crazy. Also if the SB gets in for half a bet or about BB can see the flop for a check, they're really not making any decision and they have a 50-50 chance of being right or wrong. Whereas if I make a raise, they have to make a decision, and when people make decisions that's when they make mistakes.

[pritz]

Pure and simple. Very nice.

All sides of the argument have merit but I believe DTM's response speaks to the heart of the matter.

[johnf]

Thanks for all the responses.I have learned something new from you pal.
I think this is all i need for now..I might go back to this thread if i found wrong or something I want to consult again.